Asharq Al-Awsat Interview: Hassan Al-Turabi of Sudan
04/11/2012
By Ahmed Younis
Khartoum, Asharq Al-Awsat - In an exclusive interview with Asharq Al-Awsat,
Islamist Sudanese opposition leader, Dr. Hassan Abdallah al-Turabi, warned
that the al-Bashir regime may collapse and plunge Sudan into chaos. The
controversial Sudanese Islamist figure, who was a major power behind the
1989 coup before falling out with Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, spoke
with Asharq Al-Awsat at the headquarters of his opposition People's Congress
Party in Khartoum. The interview focused on the current political situation
in Sudan, the Arab Spring and the secession of South Sudan, amongst other
issues.
Dr. Hassan Adballah al-Turabi is widely viewed as the ideological power
being the 1989 Islamist revolution that brought Omar al-Bashir to power. He
formed the National Islamic Front in the 1960s, before this group was banned
and its members arrested after General Gaafar Nimeiry took power in 1969.
Al-Turabi returned to political life in 1977 after reconciling with the
Sudanese president. He later went on to become Nimeiry’s Minister of
Justice, before backing Omar al-Bashir’s coup against him. Al-Turabi had
enjoyed close ties with Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir; however following
a bitter power struggle between 1999 and 2000 al-Turabi defected from the
ruling National Congress Party to form his own party. Al-Turabi has been
arrested by the al-Bashir regime more than 5 times since then, being
imprisoned for a number of years during this period.
The following is the full text of the interview:
[Asharq Al-Awsat] There are statements attributed to you saying that if
President Al-Bashir's regime falls, the alternative will be Islamist. Can
you elaborate?
[Al-Turabi] We consider "freedom" to be the most important thing, because
presenting Islam on its own, without other concepts, does not make it real
Islam. Reading the developments and events, we realize that Islam is behind
them. The Sudanese are no longer hostages to history, sects, or quotas. When
people are liberated, they will not find a tendency closer to them than
Islam.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] What I understood from your statement is that you propose
your party, the People's Congress Party, as an alternative to the current
regime?
[Al-Turabi] After all the development we have lived through, we will not
become the previous or current name, or the upcoming party; we are not a
historic party linked to its language, name, leaders, or heritage.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] So are you saying that you present a new party and name
for the upcoming stage?
[Al-Turabi] Perhaps we will propose a new organization, because Islam will
be restructured anew. I mean that there is no other tendency that is more
qualified than Islam if there is freedom; there are historic tendencies, but
education, the communication revolution, and migration have influenced these
tendencies.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] Sudanese history says that the "evil cycle" or the duality
of "democracy and military coup d’état" gives a new life to sectarianism?
[Al-Turabi] This is not true. In the first Sudanese freedom revolution
(October 1964) Al-Baja Congress emerged as an independent party, whose areas
are affiliated to a sectarian side (meaning Al-Khatamiyyah Sect),
independent Deputies for Nuba Mountains reached Parliament, new parties such
as the Communist Party and the Islamists emerged, and the Darfur Development
would have got rid of its old cloak had it not been eventually contained.
"Servants" used to come to the Sudanese merchants from the south; however,
after October [revolution] new men came from the south, such as Able Alier,
and new powers such as the separatist Southern Front.
Then, the conflict between the sect and the party started within the
Democratic Unionist party, between the politics and the divinity, and hence
they separated from each other, and the Ummah Party split between the
leadership and the Imamate.
We will not freeze like Islamic jurisprudence. There only are four Imams
(Malik, Al-Shafii, Ibn Hanbal, and Abu-Hanifah) despite the existence of
hundreds of improvisers along more than 1,000 years, and two sects, Shiites
and Sunnis, and the Sufi ways. Why should not be Samanis, Tijanis,
Abdul-Qadiris, and so on? If this does not occur here, it will take place in
another country, and then it will storm us, because we are not isolated from
the world.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] With the efforts you are exerting with the "Arab spring"
countries, are trying to present yourself as an authority and a leader of
the political Islam in the region?
[Al-Turabi] I cannot say that. I do not consider myself an authority in
Sudan, but it is the "authority" complex, when we steer away from God, we
look up to the "Sheikhs and authorities." This does not apply only to us,
because the entire world is like this. The west hated Islam, and hence "it
killed Bin Laden, and it only has Al-Turabi now;" they have hit me in
Canada, but it was not yet my time of death.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] After the "Arab spring revolutions," the Islamists
proposed "freedom" but without giving it socio-political or cultural
content?
[Al-Turabi] God has left freedom like this without a concept to be believed
be force, "There is no coercion in religion."
[Asharq Al-Awsat] But the human experience has produced ways to reach
freedom?
[Al-Turabi] When you say the human experience you mean the "European"
experience; are not there people in China and Latin America? The European
experience has emphasized the forgotten meanings of religion when the
Muslims were free and selected their Caliph by "elections" and with the
participation of women. After how many years from that date have women
participated in voting in Europe?
Look who awarded women the right to vote in Sudan in 1964, and look at what
the revolution created by the Islamists among the university professors and
students, who held forums, and stood against discrimination for the benefit
of graduates and giving them elite privileges; they wanted equality for the
people, and hence we call ourselves the People's Congress.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] I have heard that you have reservations over the "civil
state" within the opposition alliance of the national unanimity party, "the
Democratic Alternative." Over what are your reservations?
[Al-Turabi] During the transitional period, we do not want any principle
other than freedom. We did not say "Islamic" against what they propose;
"civil" means "western," and it means "non-religious." Why do they not deal
explicitly and say: "Non-religious?" When they propose the civil state do
they mean "the state of the Prophet?" You know them. I say: Be frank and say
"non-religious state."
[Asharq Al-Awsat] What if the concept of a "non-religious" state is
proposed?
[Al-Turabi] [The proposal is] a "secular non-religious state" is neither for
or against religion, getting religion out of politics, banning any party
based on religious foundations, and preventing any sect from establishing a
party. We said to them we agree on freedom, and with the end of the
transitional period, everyone has the right to present what he wants.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] If the charter of the national unanimity forces stipulates
as "secular non-religious" state, will the People's Congress Party agree to
it?
[Al-Turabi] Then, we would be hypocrites. The People's Congress Party will
work against this regime until it falls, and then it stands against these
people.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] Then this means that your acceptance is "tactical?"
[Al-Turabi] This is a stage in which I can buy from a "wanton, atheist,
infidel" person who has goods I need; I can even rent his house! Most of the
parties have abandoned the term "civil," and we do not call for an
"Islamist" state, but we call for a state in which there is freedom of the
press and of forming parties, a state that is governed transitionally by
agreed parliamentary, ministerial, and presidential councils.
After the end of the transitional period and the preparation of the
permanent constitution, everyone has the right to propose what he wants,
even if it is an Islamist state with one Caliph, or governed by the Sufi
Sheikhs. These are tricks used by anyone who is afraid to say, "I am a
religious ruler, and I do not want anyone to struggle over power against
me," and hence let me say to them: "A civil state" and hence they will
follow me like sheep! I said to them: I am not with you on this, and I am
against this system. Everybody has abandoned the "civil state," the only one
who keeps clinging to it is the one considered closer to religion (Al-Turabi
hints to Imam Al-Mahdi), who stays behind the word "civil" because it hides
him, and hence he uses it to deceive the people.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] What do you think of the Islamist who stayed in power
after your famous split?
[Al-Turabi] I consider them only "Muslims," because I do not judge anyone to
be outside the Islamic faith. The word "Islamist" is a new word, and it
means getting politics, arts, and economics in religion, after they were
taken out of it. The Islamists want to bring these issues anew into
religions; these people have had Islamist "intentions" in politics.
Even in the Medina state, our Master Muhammad (God's prayer and peace be
upon him) was not a dictator, and did not ban newspapers, "Satan's Party,"
the hypocrites, the infidels, and the Jews, despite the fact that they were
slandering him; he did not say: I will put you on trial in military courts.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] In your assessment, the conflict within the ruling group,
which has reached the level of exchanging accusations of fraud, where will
it lead?
[Al-Turabi] This group has not learned fraud just now; they have been
practicing fraud for a long time. Before the split they rigged the elections
in order to bring in a secretary general of the Islamist movement other than
the one the people chose. The same as there is a Muslim who steels, gets
drunk, and commits adultery, these people commit fraud.
In the last elections "the Ummah Party, the independents, the Communists,
the Baathists, the People's Congress Party" with all their grassroots did
not manage to gain 1 percent of the parliamentary seats; is this
conceivable? Fraud is their nature. We know who committed fraud, and who
printed the papers, and other things, but we are not preoccupied with the
scandals; this is the fault of the country, and if the country is satisfied
with this, then its people are responsible for it.
You always accuse the government of corruption, but you forget that most of
the market is based on "flying checks." All this corruption will collapse
through the people's will to live, because we have overthrown the rule of
former President Ibrahim Abbud in a single day. We have lost hope in them
completely, and we will not enter in any elections with them.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] In the light of the state of conflict that has surfaced,
in what direction is President Al-Bashir's regime going?
[Al-Turabi] My personal assessment is that it is going to collapse and fall.
The country is torn up, there are threats of severing other parts of it,
there is no freedom and suppression leads to explosion, and the economic
crisis is exerting severe pressure on the people. This kind of tension in
most cases brings in revolution.
The situation of the regime is very bad; it is abject, hunted down,
politically isolated, and criminally accused by the world; and internally it
is as you can see. I expect it to collapse suddenly.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] What are the scenarios of this collapse?
[Al-Turabi] It will fragment from within between newly established Islamists
and appeased Islamists. I beseech God that the opposition is prepared,
because if the regime collapses, we will move from an odious regime to
chaos, and the situation will be worse than it is in Somalia, because of the
lack of something that unites the Sudanese. The opposition has to organize
its ranks in order to fill the vacuum.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] Do you mean a shadow government?
[Al-Turabi] A shadow government is not sufficient. The opposition ought to
be prepared with institutions and policies for the transitional period. The
opposition members have agreed most of the issues, including the powers that
carry arms.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] The "youth movements" accuse you of complacency about
directing your membership to participate in the demonstrations. What is your
reply?
[Al-Turabi] Most of those arrested at the demonstrations are not members of
any party; however, there are parties whose members have been arrested.
Usually the youths have a prominent role in revolutions, because they have
no families to support, no senior jobs for which to fear, and no large
capital for which to fear; therefore, the youths are freer, and closer to
the revolution than the old who fear for the son, the wife, the job, and the
shop.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] What exactly do these groups say to the political leaders;
is it that the parties have been set aside, and have not issued clear
instructions to their grassroots to participate?
[Al-Turabi] This is not true. For instance, we in the People's Congress
Party, will none of our members participate if we do not ask him to do so?
Does the issue of overthrowing the regime need instructions?
[Asharq Al-Awsat] There is a difference between political talk about
overthrowing the regime and the party instructing its membership to
participate?
[Al-Turabi] Any member of the People's Congress Party knows that the party
line is to overthrow the regime via a popular revolution. We have said that
publicly in the international press, because the national press does not
convey this, but the people listen to the radio.
In order not to do the other parties injustice, it is true that the
coordination elements between the political groups everywhere in Sudan have
been arrested. However, I will not vote for someone merely because he is
young, but I will vote for him on the basis of a program.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] these powers do not present themselves as political powers
that aspire to ascend to power, but as powers that exert pressure in the
direction of revolution and overthrowing the regime?
[Al-Turabi] Who has been detained more than us during the evens of the last
decade? Since we separated from these people, we have been imprisoned more.
Our decisions come out from the general secretariat of the liaison office,
and are conveyed directly to all our grassroots among the students, the
sectors, and the public everywhere in Sudan.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] You are facing accusations, even from some of your
supporters, of "clinging" to the leadership of your parties?
[Al-Turabi] It is very easy to slander Al-Turabi; the Salafis slander him
because of his stance toward women, and toward apostasy, and "they call on
Amin Hasan Umar to hit him" in order to promote the newspapers. By nature, I
do not reply to such things.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] There are things to make this accusation objective, as the
new generations do not know anyone other than "Al-Turabi, Al-Sadiq,
[Muhammad Ibrahim] Naqd, God have mercy on his soul, and Al-Mirghani," who
continue to be leaders of parties, and they do not change except by death?
[Al-Turabi] Under the climate of dictatorship it is difficult to establish
intercommunication between the generations. I do not specify or present a
new person, because I am neither an heir apparent nor a Caliph. The people
choose the most appropriate person, and they stipulate that he should be
national, international, and speaks and organizes well.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] If Al-Turabi refuses to accept the post proposed to him,
the congress will have other options, but Al-Turabi usually agrees?
[Al-Turabi] When the freedom is opened up, the options become opened up, and
the leaders are elected. You criticize me, or make someone else slander
Al-Turabi in order to "promote your newspaper," because none of the
suppressed does so. For instance, if I ask you to name ten names in Ummah
Party, other than Al-Sadiq al-Mahdi and Maryam [al-Mahdi], you will not be
able to do so.
During the short period of freedom, the members of the sectarian party were
split among themselves into the Democratic Unionist Party and Ummah Party,
and their grassroots rebelled against "the first man" despite the fact that
he inherits power, and is not changed except when he goes.
Had there been freedom, Muhammad Ibrahim Naqd, God have mercy on his soul,
would have left his place for you before he died, and then another and
another would have come after him.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] The contracted agreements between the north and the south,
would they contribute to the resolution of the regime's dilemma?
[Al-Turabi] The agreement ignored issues, such as Abyei, which will be
raised within the other sides by activists, and here there are activist
tribes that will raise this issue anew. The agreement also ignored the issue
of the borders, and the issue of South Kurdufan and the Blue Nile, which
geographically and historically are linked to the south, and have their
relations with the Sudan People's Liberation Movement, because they were the
same movement.
The agreement deals with the issue of trade, because from the beginning the
prevention of trade was "stupid," and it removed the military force from
specific regions. They agreed on petrol, and negotiated a price of between
nine dollars and 36 dollars per barrel, and then agreed a price of over nine
dollars in the strangest bargaining process. One side proposed a price of 36
dollars per barrel, and the other side proposed nine dollars, and they
reached an agreement on 9.5 dollars per barrel! This is ridiculous and
really humiliating. As an African, you have described me as an "insect;"
therefore, should not I gloat when you accept such agreements?
[Asharq Al-Awsat] Could this agreement prolong the survival of the regime?
[Al-Turabi] I do not think so. Do not consider freedom to be an easy cause;
at the time of the October revolution there was no economic issue. I do not
want " a revolution of the hungry," and I beseech God to spare us the
revolution of the hungry, because it normally is brutal.
[Asharq Al-Awsat] After nearly a quarter of a century since the coup d'etat
planned by Dr Hasan al-Turabi, how do you see the situation?
[Al-Turabi] Why do you insist that the event was arranged by Hasan al-Turabi
alone; it was agreed by the Shura Council; I am not a god to do that alone!
We have been prevented from reaching the people with their consent more than
once, we have been hit twice, once in a coalition with another party, and
before that with the dictator (Jaafar al-Numayri), and then we intervened
with the army; with hindsight we have said: "This was wrong, wrong;" change
ought to have happened through a popular revolution.
