Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 17:45:13 +0200
Islamic State in Iraq: 'They Know Exactly What They Are Doing'
Interview conducted by Dieter Bednarz
Iraqi politician Ahmad Chalabi played an infamous role in spurring the 2003
American invasion of his country. In an interview, he tells SPIEGEL about
the rise of Islamic State, why the West misjudged the jihadists and whether
it is time to cooperate with Assad.
* September 18, 2014 - 12:57 PM
SPIEGEL: Mr. Chalabi, how close have fighters from Islamic State come to
Baghdad?
Chalabi: They are 26 kilometers away. That is menacingly close, but the
situation is calm at the moment and
<http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/islamic_state/> Islamic State has
not made any more advances on Baghdad. Thank God.
SPIEGEL: Do you believe they will attack?
Chalabi: The extremists have long since brought their terror to Baghdad.
Islamic State has sent its suicide bombers, has detonated explosives in
front of our homes. I could show you parts from a car bomb that rained down
on our roof not long ago. But Islamic State will not attempt to attack
Baghdad militarily. Of the six million residents in the city, four million
are Shiites. And almost every adult Shiite in the city owns a weapon.
Islamic State well knows that it would be ground down by a brutal
house-to-house fight.
SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, many Baghdad residents have fled while others have at
least begun making preparations.
Chalabi: Such reports are exaggerated. We are not panicking because we know
that Islamic State cannot conquer the capital.
SPIEGEL: Until recently it also seemed impossible that Islamic State might
overrun <http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/iraq/> Iraq's second
largest city. But now, Mosul is under the control of the jihadists.
Chalabi: Yes, but the situation was different in Mosul. There are Arabs,
Kurds, Turkmens and Yazidis living there, all of whom have suffered under
the sectarian central government. They feel excluded and cheated out of
participation in the government. What happened there was predictable. Six
months earlier, we already had clear indications that Islamic State was
preparing to attack. The Islamists have long been levying their own taxes in
Mosul, totaling some $5 million per month. As early as January, Kurdish
President Masoud Barzani warned the government of an impending disaster.
SPIEGEL: And the government did nothing?
Chalabi: No. Maliki saw Islamic State as a way to exert pressure. If I am
not re-elected, terror will befall you -- that was his message.
SPIEGEL: Would Islamic State have been able to conquer even more territory
if the autonomous Kurdish government not gone on the attack?
Chalabi: The Kurds' achievement was outstanding, both militarily and
diplomatically. European governments recognized this and abandoned their
resistance to weapons deliveries. Germany, too, acted correctly. Now, we
need a joint military leadership so that the Kurds and the army can retake
Mosul.
SPIEGEL: The Kurds believe they are closer than ever to having their own
state. Are you concerned about secession?
Chalabi: The Kurds know that they won't achieve their own state by force of
arms but through international recognition. And they have certainly heard
what the German foreign minister said in connection with the arms
deliveries: There is no Kurdish state. But that shouldn't prevent the Kurds
from continuing to develop their own institutions. Still, the best thing for
them would be to remain a part of Iraq, but in return we must treat them
with respect -- their nationality, their language and their culture.
SPIEGEL: And if that isn't enough for the Kurds?
Chalabi: Then it wouldn't spell the end for Iraq. Germany lost East Prussia.
Isn't Germany a strong country today anyway?
SPIEGEL: In Syria, Islamic State is fighting against opposition groups
rebelling against President Bashar al-Assad, who has left them alone as a
result. But now, the jihadists are also endangering the regime. Do you
believe that Assad regrets not having gone after Islamic State earlier?
Chalabi: No, I don't. Yes, the Islamists are now the only ones that can
offer significant resistance. After taking over Mosul, Islamic State sent 75
trucks full of weapons captured from our army to
<http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/syria/> Syria. But Islamic State
also weakened all those forces that could have been dangerous for Assad. As
such, he was able to concentrate on solidifying his power in metropolitan
areas like Damascus and on the coast. Now we are faced with the question:
Who is the lesser evil?
SPIEGEL: And what is your answer to that question?
Chalabi: I think it is clear. We need a united front against Islamic State
and Assad happens to be the decisive power that can fight them. But the
situation is preposterous because we also have to respect the calls for
change. I would be in favor of a dignified change.
SPIEGEL: A senior American diplomat in Baghdad told us that Islamic State
fighters are "sociopaths led by psychopaths."
Chalabi: That may apply to the fighters from the West who feel excluded in
Europe and come here for that reason. But the leaders are former officers in
the Iraqi army or professors. They are not psychopaths, they know exactly
what they are doing, are very well organized and have a strict hierarchy.
SPIEGEL: What is so fascinating about Islamic State that hundreds of Sunnis
are rushing to join?
Chalabi: Islamic State isn't corrupt. That makes it very attractive in a
country like Iraq. And of course many are attracted by its military success.
For the first time, the Sunnis have an effective fighting force. For Sunnis,
Islamic State has a function similar to that of Hezbollah for Shiites.
Before they conquered Mosul, Islamic State had maybe 10,000 fighters, but
now they have many more. Their recruitment rate is enormously high: Each
month, some 2,000 men are trained. And their success radiates to Jordan,
Libya and the Arabian Peninsula -- even as far as Mali and Pakistan.
SPIEGEL: Yet the backbone of Islamic State is the Sunni clans that Maliki
basically forced into revolt.
Chalabi: Many Sunnis joined Islamic State because they felt they were being
treated poorly. Winning back their trust is the primary task of the new
government. That will be difficult, but it is possible.
SPIEGEL: Where will the next battlefield be?
Chalabi: Islamic State is following a clear strategy. First, it wants to
solidify its power in Iraq and Syria. Then, their fighters will try to
advance to Syria's Mediterranean coast. If they are successful, that will be
seen as their next great triumph. And then, their target will be Jordan,
where things will be easy for them. Already, Islamic State has broad support
in many cities there. And when they get there, it will once again come as a
great surprise to everybody.
SPIEGEL: Why were we so wrong about the situation in Iraq and Syria?
Chalabi: You thought Islamic State was just a bunch of gunmen and
underestimated their strategic and military abilities. When Sunni clans near
Fallujah rebelled at the beginning of the year, Islamic State in Syria sent
just 150 fighters. Now, the extremists control a huge area in Iraq. Until
the US airstrikes began, they were able to move about completely freely.
SPIEGEL: US President Barack Obama announced his intention to expand
airstrikes on Islamic State fighters to Syria. Do you welcome this
declaration of war on the terrorists?
Chalabi: I hope we can take advantage of this new, forward-looking approach.
It is shameful, but without American support, Islamic State would have taken
over many more places in Iraq. Just yesterday, they wanted to capture the
Haditha Dam, but airstrikes kept them from doing so. Now, our army has to
make the best use of this assistance.
SPIEGEL: Do you believe that the US can stop Islamic State just with
airstrikes?
Chalabi: No, effective ground troops are necessary as well. The anti-Islamic
State coalition has to be totally realistic on that score.
SPIEGEL: You wouldn't be opposed to ground support?
Chalabi: The US is already supporting us with around 1,000 specialists. But
it should stay at that. I am opposed to a larger military intervention with
ground troops. That wouldn't be helpful.
SPIEGEL: When the last American soldier was pulled out of Iraq in 2011,
Obama said that the country was a sovereign, independent and democratic
state. Was that a lie, or a colossal misjudgment?
Chalabi: At the time, the president was prepared to do anything to get out
of here. He had promised to withdraw the troops during the campaign and he
had to fulfill that pledge, no matter what the price.
SPIEGEL: When you look around today, at the terror, the human suffering, the
economic misery, do you still believe it was worth it to get rid of Saddam
Hussein? And do you regret providing false information to the US to justify
the 2003 invasion?
Chalabi: I don't regret anything. And we didn't provide any false
information. We provided the Americans with three informants and also gave
them our own assessment. But the decision to invade was one the Americans
made on their own. And, as difficult as the situation in Iraq currently is,
it was still right to topple Saddam Hussein. We had no future under him.
Today, we at least have hope that better times are coming.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Chalabi, thank you for this interview.
About Ahmad Chalabi
* http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-749861-thumbbiga-szpg.jpg
Ali Arkady/DER SPIEGEL
Achmad Chalabi, 69, became notorious as the man who delivered false
information regarding Saddam Hussein's alleged possession of weapons of mass
destruction prior to the 2003 US invasion. Chalabi has long denied
responsibility. More recently, he was seen as being a possible successor to
Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, but the post was ultimately given to
Haidar al-Abadi, who took office last week.
(image/jpeg attachment: image003.jpg)