Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 23:32:53 +0200
Mohamed El-Baradei: The View from Cairo
Asharq Al-Awsat speaks to Egypt's vice-president for foreign affairs
Written by : <http://www.aawsat.net/author/a-ibrahim2> Ali Ibrahim
on : Saturday, 10 Aug, 2013
Cairo, Asharq Al-Awsat-The road to the Federal Palace in Cairo's central
Heliopolis district is not far from the site of Muslim Brotherhood protests
and sit-ins at Rabia Basri in Nasr City.
The view from outside the palace-as with many of the public squares and
streets in Cario-reflects the current state of anxiety that the whole
country is experiencing. Armored vehicles line the streets, and large
concrete barriers surround the palace.
The purpose of the visit was to meet with Dr. Mohamed El-Baradei, Egypt's
vice president responsible for foreign affairs, who has been described as
the spiritual father of the January 25 revolution in Egypt. Despite this, he
did not participate in the first interim period. Likewise, he did not
receive any responsibilities during the year that Mohamed Mursi spent in the
presidency. Many had expected and hoped that Baradei would have run in the
previous presidential election.
He is still a source of much controversy-many are with him, and many against
him-as he has been since his return to Egypt from his position with the
International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna. This time, in a position of
responsibility, Baradei has taken an increasingly controversial stand
between Egypt's political forces. The streets are full of angry Brotherhood
members, and the general mood seems inclined to use violence whenever
tensions escalate.
In an interview with Asharq Al-Awsat, he says that he had no other options
before him than to accept the job of vice-president, with the country on the
verge of collapse, and millions of people on the streets demanding regime
change.
The following interview has been edited for length.
Asharq Al-Awsat: While there seems to be a stalemate in the dialogue between
parties to the crisis in Egypt, you seem to be in favor of extending a hand
to the other side. Will this work after the events of June 30?
Mohamed El-Baradei: In politics, you have to give and take. The protests
which have been taking place are not peaceful protests, because there has
been violence. This cannot be allowed to continue, even if the demands are
legitimate, because no one should be allowed to intimidate people. We must
however do all we can to reach a settlement, because we have to protect
lives. We must not use violence unless we have no other choice, and even
then, restraint must be used to minimize the numbers of casualties. I am
working on reducing tension by reducing the number of protesters on the
streets. If the protests become peaceful, we can then talk to the
Brotherhood about participation in the political process, and we want that,
because they are part of Egyptian society, and they should have a role to
play in a democratic country. We also want to see the Brotherhood take part
in drafting the new constitution.
We do not want any parties working on the basis of religion, because that is
against the nature of politics which has to be based on give and take, and
we know that when someone talks about religion, they talk about their own
interpretation of religion, and that is not necessarily the correct
interpretation of it. The state must move forward and not allow a repeat of
the recent crisis, which is a man-made crisis, because Egypt has never had
any problem with Islam and Islamic Sharia. Since 1980, the constitution said
Sharia was the main source of legislation. Some people, however, have
misinterpreted this and began to cause problems, almost dividing Egypt into
Muslims and infidels. That is why we want to go back to a constitution which
clarifies our principles and values, including the freedom of belief and
expression, and to guarantee all rights for all Egyptians, and to separate
political life from religious preaching.
The Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) should be separated from the Muslim
Brotherhood, because the FJP plays a political role while the Brotherhood is
a religious organization, and the constitution will deal with such
situations to ensure the events we are living through these days, are not
repeated.
Q: But the general mood in the street is different?
I know that the general mood is in favor of crushing the Muslim Brotherhood.
Q: That is why there are questions among political parties and sections of
society which want seriousness and more decisiveness about the solution you
mentioned.
If you are in a leadership position, you should lead, not be led. It is easy
to say "let's crush the Muslims Brotherhood," but is that a solution. They
are part Egyptian society and have rights, and from a pragmatic point of
view, crushing them will be a form of oppression which will drive them
underground and make them use violence against the state, as seen in
Algeria. We have to live together and we must not alienate any part of our
society.
Q: Other political parties say that the Brotherhood Movement, or even the
Islamist movement as a whole, has been dealt a massive blow, so why would
you throw them a lifeline?
I am not throwing them a lifeline, I am giving them their rights as
citizens. I do not deal with them as a political faction, but as members of
Egyptian society. They have to be part of the social, economic and political
life, as long as they adhere to the rules accepted by society. I still hope
they participate in the new constitution so that we can all find a way to
live together, because if we do not, then we will see a repeat of what is
happening in Syria and Iraq. I understand the Egyptian people's anger, and I
know the Brotherhood want to appear as the victims, but we must use our
brains and conscience to reach as resolution which will bring about an Egypt
which is at peace with itself.
Q: Some people explain the events of June 30 as a result of bad
administration in the previous year. Others say it is a result of a fear for
the country's identity, or what some call the "Brotherhoodization" of the
state.
The country's identity problem is a fantasy. Egypt is 7,000 years old and no
one wakes up in the morning wondering what their identity is.
Q: What about the "Brotherhoodization" of the state?
This is not a question of identity, but an attempt by a group to impose
their interpretation of religion on the rest. The rest, however, including
the Al-Azhar [the highest Sunni religious authority in Egypt] are at odds
with them. No one can impose their interpretation of religion on others. The
Brotherhood use the policy of exclusion, where you're either with them or
against them, and that is against democracy, which brought them to power.
When the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) ruled Egypt for one
year, we were set on the wrong course. The same happened in the year which
followed presidential elections, which was a total failure from the social
and economic points of view. People decided that changing the regime was a
must, and same goes for changing the president and holding early elections.
The numbers which took to the street forced the army to move to save the
country from civil war.
I saw this coming since early June. Mursi failed to understand the message
and his group did not understand it either. Even foreign envoys, such as
Catherine Ashton (EU foreign policy chief) said that if this (June 30
events) had happened in a democratic state, the president would have
resigned. They have instruments such as withdrawing confidence in the US,
but we do not have these, we only have people who can go out to the streets,
and had the army not intervened at the right time, the situation could have
developed into civil war.
Q. This is what causes arguments, especially externally.
We were between a rock and a hard place in Egypt. Either the army-which said
it will not allow the country to collapse-intervened after giving two
ultimatums of one week and 48 hours, or we would have ended up with street
battles. We cannot, however, describe this as a military coup when you have
20 million people behind you, calling for Mursi to resign. The idea of a
military coup has gone in Europe and the US. Everyone agrees that the army
intervened to save and correct the democratic process and the path of the
revolution. Gen. Abdel-Fattah Al-Sisi still wished Mursi had succeeded, I
did too, and we wished that he had listened to the people, and he had ample
opportunity to do so, but he failed, and he did so because of his exclusion
policies and inexperience in running state affairs.
Q. Talking about the transitional phase and the road map which is based on
nine months. Do you under the current circumstances see that as possible to
implement, or will it take longer?
I think we can resolve the issue if the Brotherhood accepted that there was
no going back. The National Democratic Party (NDP) accepted that after the
fall of Mubarak, and we want the Brotherhood to understand the situation
just as the NDP did in accepting that there was desire for change. We also
want both the NDP and the Brotherhood to participate in the new political
process. If all this happens, then I can see the transitional phase being
completed within the nine months, or maybe one year if I was to be truthful.
The new constitution must be comprehensive and representative of all people
and guarantee the rights of all people in Egypt, women and children, Copts
and others. If we achieve this, it will be the biggest achievement in the
history of modern Egypt, because since 1952, there had not been a real
constitution which could be described as a democratic constitution in the
real sense. After that, there will be parliamentary and presidential
elections.
Q. A statement by a Brotherhood leading figure appeared in the New York
Times saying they were waiting for a good will initiative.
There is no dialogue at official level, but there are many mediators, but
before we start dialogue the Brotherhood need to denounce violence. We
cannot start talking to them while they intimidate people and exploit the
crisis.
We already have in Egypt the EU representative Bernardino Leon, US Assistant
Secretary of State William Burns, UAE Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah Bin
Zayed, Qatari Foreign Minister Khalid Bin Atiyyah, who are all trying to end
the violence, and after that, we can discuss how the Brotherhood can
participate in the drafting of the constitution, and take part in the
political process.
Q. There seems to be great sensitivity in the street about foreign mediation
in internal affairs.
Of course it is an internal matter, but we are part of the world, and the
world is concerned.
These people did not come to interfere in Egypt's internal affairs, but some
of them have links to the Brotherhood and can influence them. We welcome any
help from anyone to resolve the crisis, even though in the end, it will be
us who resolves the problem after listening to the advice of outsiders.
Q. General Sisi criticized President Barack Obama and the American
Administration, and at the same time, he called on them to use their
influence on the Brotherhood. Do you expect that to happen, and do they have
that kind of influence?
We must understand in the Arab world that everyone looks after their own
interests. The United States had a relationship with the Brotherhood because
we had a Brotherhood president for one year. In my view, this was seen by
the Americans as an opportunity to forge relations with political Islam,
represented by the Brotherhood in the region. The Americans have now
accepted that change has taken place in Egypt and that the Brotherhood are
not there. If the Americans still have links with the Brotherhood and can
influence them to accept the current situation, then they are welcome.
Q. There is talk about the presence of doves who want political settlement,
and hawks within the government, who want decisive action, and that those
who want a continued political effort are a minority.
Differing views are found in every country. We all want an end to the
protests but I think we still have time and other avenues to consider before
we resort to force. This will give us the chance to prove we tried
everything we could to save lives. However, I still do not see force as the
way to resolve the issue, and that there must be a form of reconciliation.
Q. You are described by some as the Godfather of January 25 revolution, but
you were subjected to criticisms which still continues. Your supporters
expected you to run for president last time, but you did not for your
personal reasons, and then decided to take on the responsibility this time,
which could have a heavy political cost to you.
I did not run in the 2012 elections because there was no constitution and I
did not know what the powers of my office were, and we all saw how it all
ended, with the Mursi's annulment of the Constitutional Court. This time I
accepted the responsibility because 20 million who went out on June 30 asked
me to play my role. I have taken a big risk, putting my reputation and
credibility on the line.
Q. What if the Brotherhood refused to participate? Is there hope to reach
any settlement with them?
I hope that, just like Mubarak's regime did, that there was no way back, the
Brotherhood also understand that there no way back. I think their leaders
did, and that Mursi's return is not on the agenda. We do say to them
however, that we want to work with them on a new basis and a new reality, to
build a new system like other democracies.
Q. One of the problems of the transitional period is the divisions within
the political forces, and the Brotherhood was the main force which was
organized. How do we guarantee that after one year of the elections, we do
not end up with the same problems?
I think what happened last time will not be repeated for two reasons. The
first reason is that the Brotherhood lost their credibility in the Egyptian
street because of their incompetence. The second reason is that the civil
forces have begun to understand their power in unity. The Brotherhood and
the Salafists benefited from exceptional circumstances. People lost hope in
Mubarak and Egyptian bureaucracy, while the Brotherhood were giving aid to
poor people and raising slogans like "Islam is the solution." It is a
difference scenario now, when the constitution will guarantee that no one
will be able to impose their ideas on others, and everyone will have their
rights guaranteed.
Q. How do you see the relationship between the presidency, the civil
government and the armed forces? I mean, who with regards who will have the
authority and be the decision maker.
There is harmony in the relationship. For instance, we know each other and
we have worked together before. We have President Adly Mansour who was a
judge and has his independent ideas and understands the concept of justice.
We also have a National Defense Council, and although I did not know General
Sisi before, he understands his military role. Therefore, I can say there is
harmony, and we may have differences on some issues, but we all sit down and
discuss these like a family and resolve them.
Q. Do you see that the nine-month transitional period has the opportunity to
revive the economy, even by a little margin?
This is an issue we are discussing now, and that is why we need the violence
to end. We have aid coming from the Gulf and need calm to be restored to
allow private investments to flow in. People must see that there is change,
to give them hope. We are talking about projects to help poor Egyptian
families and we must do more to save these people from poverty and
illiteracy.
Q. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) said it will only negotiate with an
elected government.
I think when calm is restored we will negotiate with the IMF. The whole
international community, including the IMF, wants to negotiate with us. We
are not asking the IMF for USD 4 billion today, we just want them to show
confidence in Egyptian economy. Investments will come and tourism will
return, but the security and stability problem must be resolved. People are
fed up that two and a half years after the ousting of Mubarak, they have
seen nothing but deterioration in security.
Q. There is great concern in the Arab world for Egypt. What do you say to
the Arabs about Egypt's future? Is there hope for the return of stability?
Egypt is a great country and of course there is hope. The shorter the
transitional period, the quicker we achieve coexistence. It is the same
everywhere, look at Syria and Iraq, look at Somalia and Yemen. The Arab
world today is in its worst security wise. We say to the Arabs however,
there is hope, democracy is a new concept in the Middle East and we need
time. I also call on Arabs to help us, and for the world community to help
our economy. Egypt is open to the world and has no concerns about foreign
interference because it is confident in itself.
Q. Are you thinking of running for presidency? We know you said you do not
have such ambitions, but what if you were put under pressure and asked to
run?
This idea is not on the agenda, and I hope I am not pressured, and I also
hope I can resist the pressures because I can see a new generation which
should be given a chance, with our help. I mean we can have a mixture of
youth and experience, and if we set the correct course during the
transitional phase, I will be one of the happiest people in the world and
will be able to travel to London to see my grandchildren, whom I have not
seen for six months.
Q. Are you planning any foreign trips?
These days everyone seem to come to us, but of course there is the UN summit
in September, which will give me the opportunity to meet a number of leaders
and explain the situation in Egypt to them, and the economic and other
problems it faces, including the Nile water issue which we can resolve in
partnership with African states. We should never have confrontation.
Q. Do you think the Arab spring has been positive or negative for the Arab
world?
We are moving from decades of oppression to a stage of complete change to
democracy. We may have been a little over optimistic with regards to the
time it will take. I recall General Tantawi saying after the ouster of
Mubarak that the issue will take six months to resolve. I told him I
disagreed, but I still did not foresee the problems would be of the
magnitude we see today. If we want to be a part of this world, then we need
to apply world values, which are based on democracy.
Q. Going back to the issue of the constitution, and the mistake you
mentioned in holding the elections before it. The opposing view says the
constitution went to a referendum and was voted on.
In 50 years of oppressive rule, the Muslim Brotherhood was the only
organized party in Egypt. All others were growing. The Brotherhood saw a
chance and ran for government and then the referendum on the constitution,
in which religion was exploited where they claimed that a yes vote was a
vote for Islamic Sharia. Islam has been in the Egyptian constitution since
1923, and the laws of the country are derived from the Islamic Sharia
according to the 1980 constitution, but we also live together as Muslims and
Christians in complete harmony. We should not allow the issue in Egypt to
turn into Muslims against infidels.
Q. People are asking when the protests and violence will end, before eid or
after?
I hope it will be before eid. There are great efforts being made to end the
protests, or at least contain them. Protests should be peaceful and not
intimidate people and disrupt their lives. We will continue to talk to the
Brotherhood until the protests are over. However, violent protests and those
which want to take the country back to the pre-June 30 era, are
unacceptable. I think this week will be a decisive week until the end of
eid.
Q. With regards to Sinai, when will stability return there?
Sinai has many Takfiri and terrorist groups. It is possible that there may
be as many as 10,000 or 12,000 from what I heard. I have also that there may
be a relationship between the Brotherhood and the situation in Sinai. We do
not seek a solution by force unless it is necessary, but we hope for
conciliation. We also hope for a new political and security process to start
there, although the resolution of the Sinai problem is not difficult from
what I understand form the armed forces.
<http://www.aawsat.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Ali-Ibrahim-ElBaradei-e137
5893269307.jpg> Asharq Al-Awsat's Deputy Editor-in-Chief talks to Egyptian
Vice President Mohamed El-Baradei at the Federal Palace, Cairo. (Asharq
Al-Awsat)
Asharq Al-Awsat's Deputy Editor-in-Chief talks to Egyptian Vice President
Mohamed El-Baradei at the Federal Palace, Cairo. (Asharq Al-Awsat)
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